Originally Posted by Spike (Post 223770)

What? Leonard plays linebacker and how did he have an affect on the shit show the offense put out there vs. the Jackoffs? Leaders can only do so much, they are not miracle workers. He was one of our best players all year long, and that is not even debatable. Fuck!!!!!! Wentz is the fucking problem, hell, I hate even having to type this up.

Originally Posted by apballin (Post 224080)

You need a leader on both sides of the ball

Leonard is clearly the guy on defense

Wentz clearly never should’ve been on offense it should’ve been Taylor from week 1

Being a leader is knowing what’s needed at the right moment Leonard always steps up when the team needs him Wentz seems to fold up and choke when he’s needed the most

That can kill the belief and shatter confidence of wanting to give your all for a guy

Gotta have balance

Originally Posted by rm1369 (Post 224114)

We have a fundamental difference on what a leader is. What you describe is, to me anyway, a great player - not necessarily a leader. I think it is great for the team if it’s best players are also leaders, but it isn’t a requirement. Many great players are actually poor leaders because the natural talents they possess don’t transfer to those around them. For example, here is a quote from Leonard on Walker’s departure:

“Now that Anthony Walker is gone, you need that person to take in that leadership role and say, ‘Okay, this is what you have to do,'” Leonard said, via Joel A. Erickson of the Indianapolis Star. “‘This is the way that it has to be.’ . . . I’m going to have to quit being this friendly guy, quit being this guy that smiles all the time and goes about doing it his way. Now, it’s about this is the right way, this is how we do it, and hold people accountable that way.”

Notice that Leonard himself said he had been doing things “his way” and now he has to do them “the right way”? Leonard was a great player before this year, but his methods were by his own admission not what you want the majority of the team to emulate. Why? Because it likely won’t work for them.

This quote is just another example of why I don’t see Leonard as a leader. Think about what he actually said here. He basically said: “I anoint myself leader and now I’ll have to start doing things the right way solely so I can start holding others accountable for doing things their own way - as I did prior to declaring myself the leader”. Without a doubt a great player, but that is pretty fucking far from EFFECTIVE leadership.

Taking it to Wentz, he’s not a shitty leader because he isn’t a great player. He’s a shitty leader because he models poor habits. The apparent lack of coachability would get plenty of other guys cut. Wentz is significantly more naturally talented than Jacoby Brissett, but I consider Brissett a leader and Wentz much closer to a cancer. If everyone on the team modeled Jacoby’s work ethic, coachability, and selflessness you’d likely have a pretty decent team (assuming at least average talent). If everyone modeled Wentz you’d be battling for the #1 pick.

I see no indications Leonard is a leader. I see that he feels he should be one. Maybe he’ll become one in time. But to me it doesn’t appear natural to him. Great player though.

Originally Posted by apballin (Post 224117)

What he says to some Colts beat writer don’t mean anything to me

Some guys lead by example some guys are rah rah leaders some guys are in between

How can Leonard hold guys accountable he doesn’t own the team

A leader steps up in big moments, has respect of all his teammates, and makes everyone bring their game up. I feel like the defense feeds of Leonard

There’s a difference when respect is earned and given

Leonard earned it

Wentz was given it

Originally Posted by apballin (Post 224117)

What he says to some Colts beat writer don’t mean anything to me

Some guys lead by example some guys are rah rah leaders some guys are in between

How can Leonard hold guys accountable he doesn’t own the team

A leader steps up in big moments, has respect of all his teammates, and makes everyone bring their game up. I feel like the defense feeds of Leonard

There’s a difference when respect is earned and given

Leonard earned it

Wentz was given it

Originally Posted by IndyNorm (Post 224125)

And yet his defense shit the bed in the biggest moment of the year against the worst team in the league. Clearly whatever Leonard did to help his team get ready for this big moment didn't work.

Originally Posted by IndyNorm (Post 224125)

And yet his defense shit the bed in the biggest moment of the year against the worst team in the league. Clearly whatever Leonard did to help his team get ready for this big moment didn't work.

Originally Posted by rm1369 (Post 224130)

I still see no difference between your definition of leadership and greatness. Terrell Owens, young Randy Moss, Antonio Brown, Levon Bell. All great players and, by your definition, leaders. Sorry, I’ll disagree.

You ask how Leonard is supposed to hold guys accountable. Do you recognize those where his words and not mine? Then you say he makes everyone bring their game up. I’ll ask you how? The most beneficial way to me is by modeling the right dedication, film study, body care, etc during the week. That’s leadership to me. Doing things “your way” instead of “the right way” during the week and then making a big play is greatness. Both are important, but they are different. To me at least.

Using your own definition, Leonard’s leadership failed against the Jags. He played like shit and so did nearly everyone else. He then comes out and talks about how OTHER GUYS need to learn from the failure. He’s a talker, not a leader.
.

Originally Posted by apballin (Post 224135)

Are you fuckin kidding me???

He’s put up historic numbers only comparable to Ray Lewis at this point in his career he created more turnovers than half of the teams in the NFL by himself with zero pass rush all year

He talks and backs it up fuck that Reich and Wentz failed more than anyone on this entire team all year and most of all the last 2 weeks of the season

Leonard can only mask so much he’s a leader but I’ll say it again you gotta have it on both sides of the ball

Originally Posted by rm1369 (Post 224137)

I’ve not questioned Leonard’s greatness, only his leadership. You are the one that can’t separate the two. Go back and look at the list of players I provided. Each one was great. Would you defend them as leaders as you are Leonard? Hell, each one of them won more than Leonard has so far. Yes it’s a team game. I don’t think anyone is trying to blame Leonard for the entire collapse. He just hasn’t shown leadership and the team needs some.

Originally Posted by apballin (Post 224140)

You listed 4 diva ass bitches that played offense always cried about getting the ball all the goddam time and weren’t loyal to teammates or teams not 1 guy you listed was ever considered a leader

Moss had his best season when he had a true leader

But again I don’t see any comparison of offensive players to a leader on defense

Some guys have to grow into leadership ofcourse Leonard wasn’t expecting to be a leader he’s been a small school guy overlooked and underrated his entire life but I’d say he’s growing into a hell of a player and only scratched the surface of his ability to lead

Originally Posted by apballin (Post 224140)

You listed 4 diva ass bitches that played offense always cried about getting the ball all the goddam time and weren’t loyal to teammates or teams not 1 guy you listed was ever considered a leader

Moss had his best season when he had a true leader

But again I don’t see any comparison of offensive players to a leader on defense

Some guys have to grow into leadership ofcourse Leonard wasn’t expecting to be a leader he’s been a small school guy overlooked and underrated his entire life but I’d say he’s growing into a hell of a player and only scratched the surface of his ability to lead

Originally Posted by JAFF (Post 224132)

Really ??? Because of Leonard they lost ??? It was a team effort across the board.

Originally Posted by rm1369 (Post 224155)

Yes I listed 4 diva ass bitches to show that great play doesn’t equate leadership. They are different things. Your defense of Leonard’s leadership is that he makes great plays. So did those 4 divas. That didn’t make them leaders and it doesn’t make Leonard one either.

You are right, he may grow into it. But that means he isn’t it now, so I’m not quite sure why you thinks it’s ridiculous to say he has issues with leadership currently.

Aren’t Taylor and Nelson great players as well? I’d say every reason you use to say Leonard is a leader can apply to those two. In that case the offense doesn’t lack leadership. Unless leadership and great play are simply two different things.

Originally Posted by apballin (Post 224158)

Yes 2 totally different things and leadership is earned which is why I believe Ballard kept cutting all the vets on defense because they wanted to push Leonard to be the leader on defense.

Best comparison I can use is Reggie Wayne he wasn’t drafted to be a leader but in the last few years of his career him and Mathis definitely were the leaders thru knowledge and hard work they earned the title regardless if they wanted it or not but Reggie turned out to be a hell of a leader

Originally Posted by JAFF (Post 224132)

Really? Because of Leonard they lost? It was a team effort across the board

Originally Posted by apballin (Post 224133)

The jags had 300 yards of total offense that’s hardly shitting the bed, Wentz turnovers lost that game did the defense have a great game No but 300 yards is not getting dominated

The offense scored 11 points

You realize Leonard can only do so much right

Originally Posted by IndyNorm (Post 224181)

You have to consider the opponent. That was also the highest scoring game for the Jagoffs this season. Trevor Lawrence had double the meaningful TD passes in that game than he had in the previous 9 games (yes he had only 1 meaningful TD in the previous 9 games, 2 total with one when they were down by 47 to the Cheats). Shit he tied his meaningful TD passes on their first possession when they drove on our D like a hot knife through butter.

Yes, the O was horrendous, but the D shit the bed too.