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  #231  
Old 06-12-2019, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Oldcolt View Post
First let me say that this is not black and white. We are essentially arguing about degrees, ie. we both agree we need free agents we just seem to disagree on the amount. I don't think we are in a re-build per say but we are definitely building. By that I mean part of the team is ready to compete and part we are not certain about. I'm not saying that people should have known how good or bad we were going to be, just that most of us don't really know. McCoy was and is a close call. I would just rather see the guys we have at 3 technique get the snaps to see what they can do.

Agreed about the Rams. There is not one way to do things (I'm old enough to remember a guy named George Allen) but I believe to be successful you need a way. Get a philosophy and stick to it. And it helps if you can draft a little better than the next guy.
Yup, it's all opinion. Time will eventually reveal what the right calls were. I don't mind a philosophy as long as it's flexible, but I believe in adaptation. I believe adaptation is the key to survival because things constantly change. Drafting better of course helps, but no team can maintain that forever. The pats stay in front because they use multiple methods for talent acquisition and they have not been a great drafting team over the last five years. One thing I do like is Ballard throws numbers at roster issues. He doesn't draft just one guy high to fill a need, he drafts four then sees who emerges. Because the odds are one pick will not solve a problem like pass rush. You have to keep taking guys till you get it right, then add a vet to bolster the position and provide a little instruction.

I think the rebuild stopped once we became a playoff team. You obviously never stop trying to add talent around your franchise QB. But once that talent gap narrows with the other playoff teams it comes down to X's and O's. Part of the problem when you have a QB of Luck's calibre, they cover a lot of flaws. Manning did the same thing and that team collapsed when he got injured. I still think we are light on the dline. We will have to see if any of these low cost FA's are able to fill the back end of the DT roster.

Last edited by Chromeburn; 06-12-2019 at 10:54 AM.
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  #232  
Old 06-12-2019, 11:23 AM
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Since this thread is about McCoy...

1. I don't think anyone is saying that McCoy is not a good player.
2. I don't think anyone is saying that McCoy would not improve our front seven.
3. I don't think anyone would be upset if we had signed McCoy.

That said, the issues are as follows:

1. Do we think McCoy would be the piece that wins us the SB? I don't think he is.
2. Will we be contenders without McCoy? Possibly, but the NFL is hard to predict. I think we will have about the same record without McCoy that we would have had with him, but that is just me.
3. Will we need to spend the cap dollars on someone anyway? This is where the water gets murky. Maybe Sherck can tell us where we are as it relates to the cap floor, but I think we are right at it and can get close with tweaking current contracts. As to the penalty for not hitting the floor, it is merely paying the difference to the players association. Maybe we have to pay $5M, but that is just a guess and we may actually be at the average now. Ballard knows, but I cannot recall him explaining it besides being cryptic about it.
4. Will our younger DLine guys develop? One can hope, but we cannot tell now, and signing McCoy would delay that development. This is why I am okay with missing out on him, despite thinking he would be a good fit initially.
5. I know I am missing a key issue, so fill it in here, lol.
1. I donít think McCoy himself puts the Colts over the top, but the same thing is said for almost every single player available to the Colts. Looking at it in isolation itís easy to justify. But whatís the point of signing Houston then? He didnít put the team over the top. He addresses a need and makes the team better. Iíd argue McCoy would have done the same. Couple those two with doing a little more in free agency overall (not breaking the bank) and yes I believe the Colts could have been a potential SB team. With some luck maybe they are anyway, in which case McCoy would be an even bigger missed opportunity.

2. Iíd agree he wouldnít significantly change their record, but Iíd rather have McCoy on the roster when it comes playoff time. That to me is when heíd likely pay dividends.

3. The cap floor is irrelevant to me. Ballard will handle it.

4. Everyone assumes a vet will delay player development. I donít necessarily believe that - especially on the DL where guys rotate more. There McCoy replaces the worst option. He may take a starting role over someone, but theyíd still get snaps. Plus I see value in competition and learning tips and tricks from guys that have seen it and done it. I know many on here donít seem to agree though.

5. My only other thought is that it likely comes down to where you believe the team is. When will a realistic title window open? Iíve taken a lot of flak from Chaka and a few others for saying Ballardís method will be a 3-4 year rebuild and that it could have been done quicker. If you think the window is open now then I canít understand how you would justify passing on McCoy. If you donít think they are quite there yet fine, passing on McCoy is understandable. But donít tell me itís not a 3-4 yr rebuild and say the window isnít open yet.
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  #233  
Old 06-12-2019, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by rm1369 View Post
1. I donít think McCoy himself puts the Colts over the top, but the same thing is said for almost every single player available to the Colts. Looking at it in isolation itís easy to justify. But whatís the point of signing Houston then? He didnít put the team over the top. He addresses a need and makes the team better. Iíd argue McCoy would have done the same. Couple those two with doing a little more in free agency overall (not breaking the bank) and yes I believe the Colts could have been a potential SB team. With some luck maybe they are anyway, in which case McCoy would be an even bigger missed opportunity.

2. Iíd agree he wouldnít significantly change their record, but Iíd rather have McCoy on the roster when it comes playoff time. That to me is when heíd likely pay dividends.

3. The cap floor is irrelevant to me. Ballard will handle it.

4. Everyone assumes a vet will delay player development. I donít necessarily believe that - especially on the DL where guys rotate more. There McCoy replaces the worst option. He may take a starting role over someone, but theyíd still get snaps. Plus I see value in competition and learning tips and tricks from guys that have seen it and done it. I know many on here donít seem to agree though.

5. My only other thought is that it likely comes down to where you believe the team is. When will a realistic title window open? Iíve taken a lot of flak from Chaka and a few others for saying Ballardís method will be a 3-4 year rebuild and that it could have been done quicker. If you think the window is open now then I canít understand how you would justify passing on McCoy. If you donít think they are quite there yet fine, passing on McCoy is understandable. But donít tell me itís not a 3-4 yr rebuild and say the window isnít open yet.
All fair points. I am not sure when our window opens and what adding one more player would do to the window. I think we are close, but not close enough to beat the top three or four teams in the league in January. The fan in me wants to think this is a SB contender, but until I see them lace them up on Sundays, I really have no idea. I mean, I keep thinking Brady is going to drop off a cliff, but somehow they keep doing what they do. Now I think a lot of it is the offensive game plan that people don't seem to be able to stop (i.e. edeldick on third and long every drive in the fourth quarter), but he will eventually not be able to sustain even that simple formula for much longer (surely???). Well, that and the cheating. I still think they are doing things with communication headsets that are skirting the rules, but no proof is there.

Then you have NO, LA Rams and KC. I think we close the gap on KC simply because they lost a lot of talent on offense and their defense is nothing to write home about. I also think Brees will retire soon and NO will be garbage. I hope I am wrong and that our window is this year, even without McCoy.
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  #234  
Old 06-12-2019, 07:22 PM
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A thread full of chaka talking too much and irritating the shit out of people. I'm shocked.
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  #235  
Old 06-12-2019, 10:13 PM
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Chaka,

Let me ask this - what is your definition of a dynasty? You seem to think I’m being inconsistent with suggesting it is possible to be very good for a long time (Polian Colts), but a fools errand to believe you can build a dynasty using your method in the modern NFL. I don’t see those two things as inconsistent at all and honestly I don’t see what’s so hard to understand. Perhaps we simply have a different view of what a dynasty is.

With a franchise QB and sound management I believe you can be and should be one of the top teams in the league year in year out. Is that a dynasty? To me it’s not. To me a dynasty is multiple Championships (3 or more) in some short period (6-7 years?). And I don’t believe that is a worthy goal for any team to plan around. To me the time frame is to long for how quickly things change. I’m not suggesting you shouldn’t be aware of the long term. I’m not suggesting that you shouldn’t be planning to always be a winner. I’m simply saying you shouldn’t always be prioritizing tomorrow over today as I believe that plan requires.

As you are so quick to point out with any potential signing, there is a cost to every move. You are great about pointing out what it could cost the team 3-4 years from now, but you never express a concern about the cost to the team now of not making a move. As a fan, I don’t want my teams goal to be really good over a lot of seasons. I want their goal to be to win titles. Where you see being really good for a long time leading to those multiple titles, I see the sacrifices necessary to maintain that high level of performance coming at the cost of being the best in a given year. Hence my comment about peaking in smaller windows. I’m not sure why you would find the idea of that ridiculous. It’s simply about the prioritization of resources.

Maybe I’m jaded by the Polian Colts because I subscribed to the slow steady approach and thought the Colts would win more titles by virtue of being really good for a long time and catching some breaks. I kept waiting for NE to crumple because they constantly had turn over, constantly took chances on players. But with a franchise QB and great coaching they find a way to be the best. That to me is a better, more realistic model. It’s the one I’d prefer my team to follow. Without Luck in place I’d probably agree with your approach. But I’m willing to take a down year or two for some ramped up shots at a title. And with Luck in place the reload can happen very quickly. Look at last year for example. Could the Colts have won a title with a competent WR2 and a better pass rush? Maybe, but probably not. The turn around sure as hell happened quickly though. Of course everything is a matter of degree. I’m not suggesting they should go all in this year, every year. But I don’t believe they will build a dynasty by always pushing resources until tomorrow at the expense of today.

And if Ballard can draft better than any GM in NFL history, then it almost doesn’t matter what philosophy they follow - they’ll be successful. But I wouldn’t bet on it. That’s not a knock on Ballard, it’s simple a realistic view of what can be expected of him. If you are all about the statistics then do some research on the success of GMs drafting over the long term. Any evaluation I have ever seen (with enough sample size) shows guys falling back to the pack. Especially as they start drafting in the 20s and 30s instead in the top 10 and there is more competition at spots on the team.
Let me say at the outset that I recognize and appreciate the tone of your response here. As to the substance of your post, I understand the points you are making and I agree that they are perfectly valid. At the core, however, we just have a fundamentally different viewpoint on (1) what is achievable, and (2) how best to accomplish these achievements.

To answer your initial question, your definition of “dynasty” sounds reasonable enough to me – I don’t have a specific number of years or championships in mind , but certainly it involves multiple championships in a relatively short period of time, preferably a few in a row, and ideally with group of core players staying with the team throughout the run. Ultimately, I don’t know that there’s a perfect formula of championships and years that spells "dynasty", because for me it’s more of a “I’ll know it when I see it” kind of thing. To be honest, I kind of dislike the term “dynasty”, but it serves as convenient shorthand for what I think the Colts should be striving for – memorable long term dominance and multiple championships.

Where we disagree is the idea of whether it’s achievable today. I think it absolutely is, and its exactly what we should be striving for. Why have any lower goal? And the beauty of it is that if there is any team in the league poised to do it, it’s the Colts. We have an elite QB who, barring catastrophic injury, should have a good 10 years or more left in the league. We have some quality home-grown veterans, young stars popping up all over the team, a great coach, an outstanding GM, an owner who seems willing to stay hands-off, and tons of available cap space to work with. Yes, we have some holes, but fewer and fewer as time goes on, and lots of quality young player vying to fill those holes. I see a special situation brewing, and I don’t want the Colts to risk undermining that for a short term run of a year or two. I think it could be much better than that, and I think careful management of the salary cap can serve as the fuel to propel us towards that destination. I guess that’s what all of this comes down to.

Yes, the Polian/Manning Colts didn’t achieve quite as much as most of us thought they should have. And I understand the feeling that we missed a great opportunity and you don't want to repeat it. I don’t know what went wrong, but somebody underperformed their duties, because we had all the pieces in place. Even so, those were still some great years to be Colts fan. And maybe it’s too early to say, but I don’t see the current team/coaching makeup being as likely to underperform in those situations.
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  #236  
Old 06-12-2019, 10:15 PM
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A thread full of chaka talking too much and irritating the shit out of people. I'm shocked.
Dude, I don't know what your obsession is with me, but I'm going to put this out there right now: I'm straight.
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  #237  
Old 06-12-2019, 11:00 PM
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Didnt our old site have an ignore option? Of course everyone would quote the person and you see their post anyway.
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Old 06-12-2019, 11:30 PM
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Anyone looking to follow the New England model will need to forget about their ethics and embrace cheating. That's their entire model.
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i was wrong.
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  #239  
Old 06-13-2019, 07:54 AM
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Dude, I don't know what your obsession is with me, but I'm going to put this out there right now: I'm straight.
Has to be your profile pic that stirs him up
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  #240  
Old 06-13-2019, 08:30 AM
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Anyone looking to follow the New England model will need to forget about their ethics and embrace cheating. That's their entire model.
I assume this is directed at me. I hate NE as any NFL fan should. Especially a Colts fan. And I definitely believe their legacy is tainted. However, I donít agree that all of their success is driven by cheating. They excel at two things that I believe are worthy of some degree of emulation - flexibility and focus. Flexibility in both scheme and roster building and focus on winning it all each season. Those two things let them strike the best balance in the league between planning for the future and winning it all now, IMO. They donít mortgage the future to win now, but they also donít let planning for their 3rd title stop them from winning one this year. We can agree to disagree on whether or not that is a ďmodelĒ worth following.
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