Kiper says Colts and Dolphins are working on 1st round trade

[rm1369]

Originally Posted by JesusChrist

Don't forget that this is Ballard's first draft with his own staff and scouting dept. Last year he used Grigson's guys and their info.

I didn't mean that to be a critique of Ballard, I just meant he doesn’t have a real track record to have any faith in. He’s a first time GM in year 2.

[Chaka]

Originally Posted by rm1369

I remember being pissed that Polian didn’t take the ridiculous amount of picks Ditka gave up to get Williams, but I don’t remember being pissed at the ultimate selection of James over Williams. Certainly everyone thought Williams would come off the board first, but it’s not like James was considered a major reach. He was known as a top prospect in the draft and was comfortably considered a top 10 pick. I remember Freeney being considered more of a reach than James was.

While I ultimately agree with your point about overreaction, I’ll definitely comment and express my pleasure or displeasure. Might as well go on record with what you think. And I don’t think Ballard has done anything for me to have faith in. It’s his second draft and we don’t have a good sense of his first one. I’m cautiously hopeful about his talent evaluation but he has to have a real resume before there is anything to have faith in.

You make good and fair points. However, while you personally may not have been upset about the selection of James, I recall that draft vividly and the Colts nation was largely not happy. Recall that the Colts had just traded Marshall Faulk away, and Williams was being pumped by virtually every media outlet. James was far less well known (and maybe didn't have the track record of Williams, I can't recall right now and I'm too lazy to look it up - wasn't he a Junior?). This was in the time period that RBs were routinely taken in the top 5, and most draft projections had the Colts taking Williams. He was touted as a golden boy who played the game the right way. I recall concerns about the size of Williams hands, and the Colts liking James better because of his pass-catching skills. The Saints and Ditka bought into the William hype, the Colts did not.

My recollection of Freeney is a bit different. He was undersized and considered a reach, but he was picked somewhere in the early teens so there wasn't as much national attention paid to the pick. I recall reading that the Colts had the opportunity to trade down to the late teens (where Freeney was had been projected to be picked), but Polian ultimately decided not to do it because the were afraid someone else would have grabbed him. Again, the move was panned at the time, and ultimately the Colts were proven right.

You make a fair point that Ballard doesn't yet have the track record of Polian (very few do), but I'll simply respond by saying he doesn't have a Ditka track record either. Ballard's first draft looks promising and, as I think I've made clear in other posts, I like the guy's overall approach so I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. As in most endeavors, you don't get anywhere in the NFL by following the pack, and people who take a different approach can do great things when it turns out they're right - and I'll go on record as saying I think Ballard is right.

[sherck]

Originally Posted by ukcolt

If there was some way that we were able to get both Trumaine Edmunds and Leighton Vander Esch in this draft, our defense could suddenly become something that we have not seen in decades. The Colts for years have been ripped apart by opposition offenses in the middle of the field, because we just haven't had any decent interior LB play.

There is.

If the QB that BUF wants is still available at #6, then we could get their #12, #22 and their top pick of the 3rd round for it.

Edmunds (or Smith) at #12 and LVE at #22 is possible.

2nd round picks at #36, #37 and #49.

3rd round picks at #65 (1st in 3rd round) and #67 (3rd in 3rd round)

That would be 7 picks of the top 67 or fully 10% of the overall picks.

If picked well, that is the way you rebuild a team.

Walk Worthy,

[rm1369]

Originally Posted by Chaka

You make a fair point that Ballard doesn't yet have the track record of Polian (very few do), but I'll simply respond by saying he doesn't have a Ditka track record either. Ballard's first draft looks promising and, as I think I've made clear in other posts, I like the guy's overall approach so I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. As in most endeavors, you don't get anywhere in the NFL by following the pack, and people who take a different approach can do great things when it turns out they're right - and I'll go on record as saying I think Ballard is right.

I’m fine with Ballard’s first draft and I’m hopeful about his talent evaluation. And if I had to guess, I’d say that he will ultimately improve the roster significantly and the Colts will play meaningful football games again with him as GM. They will be a relatively consistent playoff team. Of course that probably says more about my belief in Luck than Ballard, but it’s safe to say I think he will be a significant upgrade over Grigson. Not really high praise, I know.

My concern is that while you may see his approach as unique I simply see it as ultra conservative. It brings to mind Polian and Ted Thompson. Successfull GMs sure (especially Polish), but I belief both have cost their teams titles by their conservative approaches. Manning and Rodgers should have more than a title each (with Colts for Manning). Their complete reliance on the draft and their “do what we do” attitude helps maintain consistency, but doesn’t push their teams over the top quite enough. I’d rather have a few more valleys to have a few more higher peaks.

So when I see Ballard cut a 26 yr old performing Hankins because the players in this D need to be drafted into it �� I hear “do what we do” and think back to all those vanilla and ultimately underperforming Colts teams coming up short - year after year. The best teams scheme around their talent - not the other way around. “Do what we do” and ignoring free agency brought this team one title forarguably the GOAT, but without a doubt one of the top 3 QBs to ever play. That doesn’t make me optimistic for Ballard since early Polian was largely money in the draft. Ballard better but a damn drafting genius.

Now, I said there wasn’t a track record for me to have faith in Ballard he also doesn’t have a track record for me to KNOW that this is the same path Ballard will take. So I try to remain caustiously optimistic. But I tend to believ what’s someone says until I have a reason not to and all of Ballard’s words, quite a few of his actions, and the Colts available cap space and mediocre signings say he is absolutely on the the Polian and Thompson level for conservative team building.

[Chaka]

Originally Posted by rm1369

I’m fine with Ballard’s first draft and I’m hopeful about his talent evaluation. And if I had to guess, I’d say that he will ultimately improve the roster significantly and the Colts will play meaningful football games again with him as GM. They will be a relatively consistent playoff team. Of course that probably says more about my belief in Luck than Ballard, but it’s safe to say I think he will be a significant upgrade over Grigson. Not really high praise, I know.

My concern is that while you may see his approach as unique I simply see it as ultra conservative. It brings to mind Polian and Ted Thompson. Successfull GMs sure (especially Polish), but I belief both have cost their teams titles by their conservative approaches. Manning and Rodgers should have more than a title each (with Colts for Manning). Their complete reliance on the draft and their “do what we do” attitude helps maintain consistency, but doesn’t push their teams over the top quite enough. I’d rather have a few more valleys to have a few more higher peaks.

So when I see Ballard cut a 26 yr old performing Hankins because the players in this D need to be drafted into it �� I hear “do what we do” and think back to all those vanilla and ultimately underperforming Colts teams coming up short - year after year. The best teams scheme around their talent - not the other way around. “Do what we do” and ignoring free agency brought this team one title forarguably the GOAT, but without a doubt one of the top 3 QBs to ever play. That doesn’t make me optimistic for Ballard since early Polian was largely money in the draft. Ballard better but a damn drafting genius.

Now, I said there wasn’t a track record for me to have faith in Ballard he also doesn’t have a track record for me to KNOW that this is the same path Ballard will take. So I try to remain caustiously optimistic. But I tend to believ what’s someone says until I have a reason not to and all of Ballard’s words, quite a few of his actions, and the Colts available cap space and mediocre signings say he is absolutely on the the Polian and Thompson level for conservative team building.

Polian wasn't always ultra conservative - didn't he sign a bunch of high profile free agents when he first arrived in Indy (Chad Bratzke, Cornelius Bennett, Chad Cota, etc.)? While its true he later scaled back his free agent acquisitions, I think his draft-first approach was perfectly fine - the Colts were perennially in the playoffs and usually favored to win their playoff games. Whether the fact that they only won one Super Bowl was attributable to bad luck, bad coaching or bad player performance I can't say, but those were good days to be a Colts fan. It was only when Polian's drafting success tailed off that things started to go downhill.

[rm1369]

Originally Posted by Chaka

Polian wasn't always ultra conservative - didn't he sign a bunch of high profile free agents when he first arrived in Indy (Chad Bratzke, Cornelius Bennett, Chad Cota, etc.)? While its true he later scaled back his free agent acquisitions, I think his draft-first approach was perfectly fine - the Colts were perennially in the playoffs and usually favored to win their playoff games. Whether the fact that they only won one Super Bowl was attributable to bad luck, bad coaching or bad player performance I can't say, but those were good days to be a Colts fan. It was only when Polian's drafting success tailed off that things started to go downhill.

I’m aware I come off as a spoiled fan to complain about the Manning era Colts. Maybe it’s sacrilegious to say (especially after what we’ve seen recently), but to me they became kind of exhausting. As a fan it got to where I couldn’t enjoy it because I just knew they were flawed and they would come up short. Their 13-3 record year after year started to just look likes fools gold. As a Colts fan I’ve never really been jealous of NE for the titles, but I will admit I’ve been jealous of the excitement and intrigue they give their fans. Let’s be clear - I fucking despise New England. But throw out the hate and the cheating and every damn year NE adapts and is different. They change and morph. They acquire talent from any available source and then they adapt their approach to it. There isn’t a do what we do or you can only win by drafting mentality. There is a fix it and adapt mentality. There is a figure it the fuck out mentality. Look at the construction of the Eagles roster and to me it appears the same. That’s what I want. Reich sounds like he has it. Ballard and Eberflus don’t. Time will tell I guess.

[rcubed]

I get what you are saying but NE is really the inly team that can operate that way. You dont see that ability elsewhere, even if they have coaches from the BB tree.

[rm1369]

Originally Posted by rcubed

I get what you are saying but NE is really the inly team that can operate that way. You dont see that ability elsewhere, even if they have coaches from the BB tree.

I’m not asking for a full on BB approach. But to me there is a huge gulf between saying players need to be drafted into this D and full BB. Pissing away a 26 yr old performing player on a team friendly contract because he doesn’t exactly fit your ideal player in the D (when he hasn’t played a down in that D for you) is way, way to one side of that. And I’d argue that Philly had the same mentality I’m asking for and it directly contributed to their success. They didn’t say you only win by drafting players. They were aggressive on and off the field and it paid off for them. I doubt you will see Philly under current leadership have the same obvious flaws year after year after year without making aggressive moves to address it. Will they have the sustained regular season success the Manning Colts had? Probably not. But they’ve already won as many titles as the Manning era Colts did.

[Chaka]

Originally Posted by rm1369

I’m aware I come off as a spoiled fan to complain about the Manning era Colts. Maybe it’s sacrilegious to say (especially after what we’ve seen recently), but to me they became kind of exhausting. As a fan it got to where I couldn’t enjoy it because I just knew they were flawed and they would come up short. Their 13-3 record year after year started to just look likes fools gold. As a Colts fan I’ve never really been jealous of NE for the titles, but I will admit I’ve been jealous of the excitement and intrigue they give their fans. Let’s be clear - I fucking despise New England. But throw out the hate and the cheating and every damn year NE adapts and is different. They change and morph. They acquire talent from any available source and then they adapt their approach to it. There isn’t a do what we do or you can only win by drafting mentality. There is a fix it and adapt mentality. There is a figure it the fuck out mentality. Look at the construction of the Eagles roster and to me it appears the same. That’s what I want. Reich sounds like he has it. Ballard and Eberflus don’t. Time will tell I guess.

I can't throw out the hate and cheating, because that's why I think they succeed.

[rm1369]

Originally Posted by Chaka

I can't throw out the hate and cheating, because that's why I think they succeed.

That’s fair. I’ll just say it like this. To me Ballard doesn’t come off as just having a plan, he comes off as rigid. Thats not what I want from a coach or a GM. But it’s early and we’ll see how it goes.