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Oldcolt 10-17-2018 11:33 AM

The build
 
Thru six games I see hope in several areas on this team. First we are set with the most important and hardest piece to get-quarterback. To me the offensive line looks like they have the players to jell into a dominant force (with what we have invested in this line it needs to become dominant in the next 1-2 years and I think they are on the way) given time and health. Marlon Mack, if he can stay healthy, may be the answer at running back. The second half Sunday was the first time in ages our running game looked like a real running game. Tight ends seem to be good enough for us to compete. The defensive line has some talent. I really think its a good start for the line. Need a stud to elevate everyone's game in my opinion. Hopefully our #1 will be that. We have one linebacker that we can run with, need more. One safety is set, the other (Geathers) I love but injuries. And thankfully corner back is supposed to be a good position in the next draft. The challenge for the coaching staff is to not lose the culture amidst all this losing. Judging the early season as a rebuild, not by wins and losses, I'm pretty satisfied. I'm not saying we are going to make it to the promised land (and after all not knowing is what makes rooting so much fun) but if you look at where we are I don't know how you could honestly say we are on the wrong track. I'm trying to enjoy the rebuild. Honestly cannot do it on Sundays, but later in the week it doesn't look so horrible to me.

DrSpaceman 10-17-2018 11:54 AM

I think the two biggest areas of need still are secondary and WR.

sherck 10-17-2018 12:46 PM

In 2019 and beyond:

QB - Luck/Brissett. Set and no changes needed. In an era where there are not enough solid QBs to go around, we have both a solid backup and an good/extra good/elite starter, we are in good shape.

RB - Mack/Hines/Wilkins. Not highly drafted and not flashy but could end up being a pretty good committee if the O-line gels.

TE - Doyle/Ebron. A great #1/#2 punch if both can stay heathly. Good at very different things but reminds me a lot of the Kenny Dilger/Marcus Pollard years at TE. Depth needs to develop below them.

WR - Hilton. Perhaps Cain and Fountain. Ugh, T.Y. and then no one for certain. One of two weakest position groups on the roster. Yeah, I know Rogers is going to be back in 2019 as cheap depth as an RFA but he has had ample opportunity to step up and he has failed to do so time and again. Stop gap for next year but need to move on afterwards. Grant? See ya.

O-Line - Castonzo/Nelson/Kelly/???/Smith/Clark/Haeg/Good. OTs are harder to find than OGs so if Smith can fulfill ROT in 2018 and grow into the role in the future, then that needs to be the position he fills. We can draft a new starting OG in 2019 in the 3rd or 4th round to challenge Clark/Haeg/Good for the spot. The team will have to decide if they are re-signing Good in 2019 but his potential as a starter would lead me to offer him a journeymen contract even if he only ever ends up being depth for us going forward. With a 2019 draft pick, this is a good 8 man group to go into 2019 and beyond with.

D-Line - Hunt/Sheard/Steward/Autry/Turay/Lewis/Ridgeway/Ward/Muhammad. Lots of guys who, at times, have played well. Ward with 3.0 sacks on the year. Muhammad with 10 tackles in 5 games. Turay with 3.0 sacks. Hunt with his monster first couple of games. Autry with a couple of good games. Woods will be 32 and I don't expect him to be re-signed. Sure, we could use a top end stud to put greater pressure on opposing O-lines and make everyone else around them better but there are a lot of nice pieces to the D-Line right now.

LBs- Leonard/Walker/Adams/Franklin. I am very happy with the play of Leonard and Walker as starters and especially Franklin as depth. Adams has had his moments as a 7th round pick as well. A very nice young core of players to build the LBs corps around. Could use another stud but what a find in Leonard?

S - Hooker/Farley. Solid pairing going forward but we need more quality bodies. Perhaps Geathers is one of those but Ballard will have to decide if paying for his trending health is worth re-signing him.

CB - Moore/Hairston/Wilson. Not enough talent there for a core. Need to add a HUGE influx of talent if we are going to play more man coverage.

Postions Groups Upgrades Needed (in priority order):

#1 = Cornerback
#2 = Wide Receiver
#3 = Safety
#4 = Linebacker
#5 = Defensive Line
#6 = Offensive Line
#7 = Running Back
#8 = Tight End
#9 = Quarterback

If we don't touch #7/#8/#9 in 2019, add one quality body to each #4/#5/#6 and flood bodies into groups #1/#2/#3, then I think we will be on the right track.

Walk Worthy,

omahacolt 10-17-2018 01:03 PM

This dline needs more help than I think people realize.

Maniac 10-17-2018 01:11 PM

Sherck,

You list RB at #7 and say we shouldn't touch that position, I definitely disagree. Mack hasn't shown to be able to stay healthy. With him out, the running game is non-existant. You definitely take a flier on a RB somewhere in this next draft, or pick up a vet in free agency.

With a high pick, you have to get a elite pass rusher if you can. They are too rare to find otherwise.

Then after that: CB, WR, LB, Safety, RB. OL, DL

I actually expect Ballard to get more agressive with free agency this offseason, because with a few key free agents and another solid draft, we should be a pretty good team.

JAFF 10-17-2018 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by omahacolt (Post 86674)
This dline needs more help than I think people realize.

They need a freeney

FatDT 10-17-2018 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAFF (Post 86680)
They need a freeney

I agree in that they need a #1 pass rusher. We have a bunch of guys that can contribute to a pass rush. The kinds of guys that can win one-on-one matchups and take advantage of blockers being occupied elsewhere. And we have a defensive scheme that gets those types of players open lanes to the passer. But we don't have a blue chip that wins battles regardless of who is blocking or how many.

It doesn't have to be a DE, it could be Ed Oliver playing an Aaron Donald-type role. I also think NT could use an upgrade since Woods is getting older and Stewart seems like a depth player.

Chromeburn 10-17-2018 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAFF (Post 86680)
They need a freeney

I would say a Simeon Rice or a Bosa. As much as Freeney was a terror on passing downs, he was a huge liability in the run game.

A dominate 3-tech would do wonders for the line. We saw what one could do with Hunt kicking butt out there.

FatDT 10-17-2018 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chromeburn (Post 86686)
I would say a Simeon Rice or a Bosa. As much as Freeney was a terror on passing downs, he was a huge liability in the run game.

That was more due to scheme IMO. Teerlinck coached him (all of them really) to shoot upfield. Freeney proved he could play the run during the 2006 playoffs. They adjusted and did great, Freeney included.

Chromeburn 10-17-2018 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatDT (Post 86687)
That was more due to scheme IMO. Teerlinck coached him (all of them really) to shoot upfield. Freeney proved he could play the run during the 2006 playoffs. They adjusted and did great, Freeney included.

Scheme, player, they didn't do it enough. And there is shooting gaps and then there is creating gaps which they did the latter. Should have done it all the time. Teams would have 3rd and long and run a draw at their gap and get the first so many times.

VeveJones007 10-17-2018 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by omahacolt (Post 86674)
This dline needs more help than I think people realize.

Some in the organization think Lewis can be a really good 3-technique. If that's the case, then the d-line is looking a lot stronger on paper. We'll see.

FatDT 10-17-2018 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chromeburn (Post 86688)
Scheme, player, they didn't do it enough. And there is shooting gaps and then there is creating gaps which they did the latter. Should have done it all the time. Teams would have 3rd and long and run a draw at their gap and get the first so many times.

I don't disagree with you. But when a player proves he can do something, but consistently every player at that position does something else, it's a pretty good indication that it was scheme. I don't know why they kept doing it, other than " We do what we do".

Maniac 10-17-2018 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chromeburn (Post 86688)
Scheme, player, they didn't do it enough. And there is shooting gaps and then there is creating gaps which they did the latter. Should have done it all the time. Teams would have 3rd and long and run a draw at their gap and get the first so many times.

Why didn't the defensive coordinator have someone stunt into that area or a LB fill that area?

Puck 10-17-2018 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chromeburn (Post 86686)
I would say a Simeon Rice or a Bosa. As much as Freeney was a terror on passing downs, he was a huge liability in the run game.

A dominate 3-tech would do wonders for the line. We saw what one could do with Hunt kicking butt out there.


Dont forget we have Lewis so I think 3 tech is not as important as a pass rusher.

Oline, WR and Cb's are the next 2 must haves.round out the list of must haves

Chromeburn 10-17-2018 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatDT (Post 86691)
I don't disagree with you. But when a player proves he can do something, but consistently every player at that position does something else, it's a pretty good indication that it was scheme. I don't know why they kept doing it, other than " We do what we do".

Dungy was always preaching spacing integrity, I don't know why they did it. Whatever the reason, it drove me crazy. That's why I enjoy watching this defensive line, much more disciplined in their gap control.

Chromeburn 10-17-2018 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puck (Post 86694)
Dont forget we have Lewis so I think 3 tech is not as important as a pass rusher.

Oline, WR and Cb's are the next 2 must haves.round out the list of must haves

I do want to see what Lewis can do, staff is super high on him. A dominate dline does wonders for the guys behind them, just like a dominate oline is the engine of the offense. I wouldn't mind him some help though. There are so many dline in this draft might get one in the second round. I think for me it will come down to the player available and BPA. Bosa vs Oliver, or Oliver vs Ferrel, Ferrel vs Brown. I was going to make a draft post with possible options just cause I'm bored and love to talk draft.

I do think this team will make a second half run though and I suspect we will be looking at a pick around 10.

I don't like the idea of spending a 1st on WR, too many busts, and this is a deep group. I think a 2nd on one will help us just fine, and maybe another later round pick. Greedy Williams of LSU is the top rated corner. He should be a shut down corner. But the cover 2 doesn't really need shut down man corners, you can get decent corners to fill the job in later rounds. The cover-2 does need high picks spent on dline because you only rush with 4 men 90% of the time. As for oline, there should be several good LT's this year.

Dam8610 10-17-2018 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by omahacolt (Post 86674)
This dline needs more help than I think people realize.

So much more. Fortunately Ballard appears to be a lines guy.

Chromeburn 10-17-2018 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JesusChrist (Post 86692)
Why didn't the defensive coordinator have someone stunt into that area or a LB fill that area?

In a cover two the LBs are dropping into zones, with the mike dropping into a deep middle zone. So if the RB makes it to the second level on a 3rd and long he should have a lot of open space in front of him. That is why gap control is important, so you don't create those running lanes for a RB.

Freeney and Mathis went so wide in their pass rush they created huge gaps in the line. A stunt would mean Freeney is going inside and the DT is looping outside. The same gaps are being attacked, they are just switching jobs. If the DT moved over to fill the gap the DE's created in their rush, then they would just create a new gap in the middle of the line. Same problem again just in a different place. The cover 2 is predicated on rushing four guys only.

I think MJD is still running on that defense and gaining yards.

FatDT 10-17-2018 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chromeburn (Post 86705)
I do want to see what Lewis can do, staff is super high on him. A dominate dline does wonders for the guys behind them, just like a dominate oline is the engine of the offense. I wouldn't mind him some help though. There are so many dline in this draft might get one in the second round. I think for me it will come down to the player available and BPA. Bosa vs Oliver, or Oliver vs Ferrel, Ferrel vs Brown. I was going to make a draft post with possible options just cause I'm bored and love to talk draft.

I do think this team will make a second half run though and I suspect we will be looking at a pick around 10.

I think so too. I think the drops will lessen/stop. TY and Doyle will come back. The OL, if they stay healthy, should keep getting better. I think we'll still pick in the top half of the draft but I'm expecting 5-7 wins.

omahacolt 10-17-2018 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chromeburn (Post 86708)
In a cover two the LBs are dropping into zones, with the mike dropping into a deep middle zone. So if the RB makes it to the second level on a 3rd and long he should have a lot of open space in front of him. That is why gap control is important, so you don't create those running lanes for a RB.

Freeney and Mathis went so wide in their pass rush they created huge gaps in the line. A stunt would mean Freeney is going inside and the DT is looping outside. The same gaps are being attacked, they are just switching jobs. If the DT moved over to fill the gap the DE's created in their rush, then they would just create a new gap in the middle of the line. Same problem again just in a different place. The cover 2 is predicated on rushing four guys only.

I think MJD is still running on that defense and gaining yards.

If it is 3rd and long, I tell my all world de to go get the qb. Not worry about the rb on a draw

Chromeburn 10-17-2018 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by omahacolt (Post 86715)
If it is 3rd and long, I tell my all world de to go get the qb. Not worry about the rb on a draw

What about 2nd and short? They would do the same thing. They didn't worry about the RB at all.

The 3rd and long is an example of a draw working consistently when it shouldn't. Maybe a few times, not almost all the time.

1965southpaw 10-17-2018 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatDT (Post 86709)
I think so too. I think the drops will lessen/stop. TY and Doyle will come back. The OL, if they stay healthy, should keep getting better. I think we'll still pick in the top half of the draft but I'm expecting 5-7 wins.


TY practiced today for the first time and per Kevin Bowen is likely to play Sunday. Doyle did not and likely not back til after the bye week.

VeveJones007 10-17-2018 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chromeburn (Post 86705)
I do want to see what Lewis can do, staff is super high on him. A dominate dline does wonders for the guys behind them, just like a dominate oline is the engine of the offense. I wouldn't mind him some help though. There are so many dline in this draft might get one in the second round. I think for me it will come down to the player available and BPA. Bosa vs Oliver, or Oliver vs Ferrel, Ferrel vs Brown. I was going to make a draft post with possible options just cause I'm bored and love to talk draft.

I do think this team will make a second half run though and I suspect we will be looking at a pick around 10.

I don't like the idea of spending a 1st on WR, too many busts, and this is a deep group. I think a 2nd on one will help us just fine, and maybe another later round pick. Greedy Williams of LSU is the top rated corner. He should be a shut down corner. But the cover 2 doesn't really need shut down man corners, you can get decent corners to fill the job in later rounds. The cover-2 does need high picks spent on dline because you only rush with 4 men 90% of the time. As for oline, there should be several good LT's this year.

Yeah, don't even both with the Bosa/Oliver discussion. That isn't going to happen. There should still be some good DL/EDGE and LTs available though.

omahacolt 10-17-2018 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chromeburn (Post 86716)
What about 2nd and short? They would do the same thing. They didn't worry about the RB at all.

The 3rd and long is an example of a draw working consistently when it shouldn't. Maybe a few times, not almost all the time.

Dungy fucked this team out of multiple championships with his shitty scheme.

Chromeburn 10-17-2018 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by omahacolt (Post 86742)
Dungy fucked this team out of multiple championships with his shitty scheme.

That's a long conversation. I won't disagree. But I think the scheme needs talent in the right places to be successful. I always felt like we were halfway there. Polian put the emphasis on the offense more than the D and I think it might have cost us a couple more SB's.

JAFF 10-17-2018 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by omahacolt (Post 86742)
Dungy fucked this team out of multiple championships with his shitty scheme.

That is like an a hole, everybody has one.

YDFL Commish 10-18-2018 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAFF (Post 86680)
They need a freeney

I don't care, if it's, a Freeney. a Watt, an Atkins or a Donald. Omaha is right, we need more pass rush...and I don't care where it comes from.

YDFL Commish 10-18-2018 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by omahacolt (Post 86742)
Dungy fucked this team out of multiple championships with his shitty scheme.

I don't think that it was the scheme. I believe that it was Dungy trusting that some coaches and players would get it done, when clearly they would not have.

My biggest case in point would be Rawb replacing Gilbert Gardner. Rawb didn't have to be great...hell, I'm not sure that he even had to be good. But, Gardner was so bad, that anything was going to be an improvement.

Yet, Dungy stuck with him as a starter, for what...12 weeks?

Oldcolt 10-18-2018 11:31 AM

I would like to get opinions on how the rebuild is going in your mind. When we hoist that freaking trophy, what players/positions on this team do you think will be on that team that are on this one? I, for one, think the rebuild is going very well. The appear to have done the one thing all of us were screaming for, fix the offensive line so Luck doesn't get killed. Maybe, just maybe, they are learning the art of run blocking to. One half is enough to get me pumped to see more. Mack looks like he may be either the answer or part of the answer. Hilton is the only receiver that will be on that team (hopefully). Our tight ends are fine. I'm not so sure about the defense. The line has some players and we have one linebacker and maybe our starting safeties. When I look at it I think we are in the process of building in the correct way (quarterback and lines first). I've got high hopes.

omahacolt 10-18-2018 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YDFL Commish (Post 86768)
I don't think that it was the scheme. I believe that it was Dungy trusting that some coaches and players would get it done, when clearly they would not have.

My biggest case in point would be Rawb replacing Gilbert Gardner. Rawb didn't have to be great...hell, I'm not sure that he even had to be good. But, Gardner was so bad, that anything was going to be an improvement.

Yet, Dungy stuck with him as a starter, for what...12 weeks?

and constantly using 260 lb dt's. getting smoked in the run game and still doing it over and over and over.

omahacolt 10-18-2018 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oldcolt (Post 86800)
I would like to get opinions on how the rebuild is going in your mind. When we hoist that freaking trophy, what players/positions on this team do you think will be on that team that are on this one? I, for one, think the rebuild is going very well. The appear to have done the one thing all of us were screaming for, fix the offensive line so Luck doesn't get killed. Maybe, just maybe, they are learning the art of run blocking to. One half is enough to get me pumped to see more. Mack looks like he may be either the answer or part of the answer. Hilton is the only receiver that will be on that team (hopefully). Our tight ends are fine. I'm not so sure about the defense. The line has some players and we have one linebacker and maybe our starting safeties. When I look at it I think we are in the process of building in the correct way (quarterback and lines first). I've got high hopes.

i think it is going way slower than it has to.

omahacolt 10-18-2018 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAFF (Post 86757)
That is like an a hole, everybody has one.

what i said was a fact

Oldcolt 10-18-2018 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by omahacolt (Post 86861)
i think it is going way slower than it has to.

So I'm thinking that by the end of next year we should be a playoff team. I really think we are on track for that. I think we are one more good draft and spending some money on a few free agents away. Do you disagree or do you just think we should have put more into this year instead of going whole hog on the rebuild.

omahacolt 10-18-2018 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oldcolt (Post 86873)
So I'm thinking that by the end of next year we should be a playoff team. I really think we are on track for that. I think we are one more good draft and spending some money on a few free agents away. Do you disagree or do you just think we should have put more into this year instead of going whole hog on the rebuild.

I don’t think you have to do one or the other when you have cap space and an elite qb. Signing a cb wouldn’t have hurt the developerment if anyone for example.

But yes, they should be in the playoffs at least next year. Otherwise Ballard should probably be shown the door

JAFF 10-18-2018 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by omahacolt (Post 86862)
what i said was a fact

No its not

Do you have a HOF jacket? No, just talking about what other people do.

Oldcolt 10-18-2018 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by omahacolt (Post 86897)
I don’t think you have to do one or the other when you have cap space and an elite qb. Signing a cb wouldn’t have hurt the developerment if anyone for example.

But yes, they should be in the playoffs at least next year. Otherwise Ballard should probably be shown the door

So I agree it would't hurt development as none of these guys will be on the team when it gets to the promise land. But the problem is I don't or didn't see anyone in free agency that would have been here when we get there either. Maybe this years team is a little better if we signed a cb, but do you really care about being a little better this year? Seen thru the lens of a rebuild, it could be seen as a waste of money and resources that could be more wisely spent later.

Indiana V2 10-19-2018 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oldcolt (Post 86873)
So I'm thinking that by the end of next year we should be a playoff team. I really think we are on track for that. I think we are one more good draft and spending some money on a few free agents away. Do you disagree or do you just think we should have put more into this year instead of going whole hog on the rebuild.

Ballard hasn't spent big money in free agency yet, what makes you think he will this year? He likely won't, he wants to build through the draft, which is a slow process, and wasting Andrew Luck in his prime during the process.

Racehorse 10-19-2018 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAFF (Post 86902)
No its not

Do you have a HOF jacket? No, just talking about what other people do.

Dude, I agree with you that omaha can be stubborn, but nobody has to have a HOF jacket in order to have an opinion.

JAFF 10-19-2018 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racehorse (Post 86923)
Dude, I agree with you that omaha can be stubborn, but nobody has to have a HOF jacket in order to have an opinion.

I know that. But he said "fact". Fact is, he's full of _________ (fill in the blank)

He doesn't know what happened in the room, he only got to see the game. If he does have all knowning all seeing powers, I would like to know about where the stock market is going to be in 3 months.

Chaka 10-19-2018 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by omahacolt (Post 86897)
I don’t think you have to do one or the other when you have cap space and an elite qb. Signing a cb wouldn’t have hurt the developerment if anyone for example.

But yes, they should be in the playoffs at least next year. Otherwise Ballard should probably be shown the door

So much resistance here to Ballard and his strategy, I don’t understand it. The guy’s done a great job since he’s been here, mostly by taking an approach that the majority of the people here seem to disagree with. Many people here (yourself included, if I’m not mistaken) disagreed with his draft picks this year, yet its starting to look like one of the best non-QB drafts in recent memory. And the outcries of pain when he cut Hankins, Simons and traded Anderson were deafening – yet those decisions don’t seem to have harmed the Colts in the least and our defense is playing better than it was with those guys. Keeping Hunt was another ripe source of criticism, and once again it proved to be a great decision. Give the guy credit.

Now, he hasn’t been perfect – the WR corps hasn’t played very well, though again I’m not sure what better options he had. I’m guessing that heading into the season he thought it would be adequate, but sometimes you don’t know that your boat leaks until you put it in the water. I don’t think that signing Grant was a bad decision at the time, even though it hasn’t turned out that well yet. I don’t see that there were a lot of great free agents WRs that he could have signed (maybe Allan Robinson as GBB pointed out, but who else?).

I get your point that our CB corps is bad, and it’s undeniably true. It’s easy to complain about this six games into the season, but if you’re going to do so you should at least explain what specifically you think he should have done instead. Who do you think he should he have signed? And did you say this before the season, or are you just using hindsight that wasn’t available to Ballard? I’m looking at the 2018 free agent list for CBs and it’s relatively uninspiring (Malcolm Butler was the top free agent CB, and now the Titans are complaining about him).

Let’s also not forget what Ballard said before free agency began – that we wanted to build a culture before adding high priced free agents. I think this has been particularly true on the defense.

The complaints about his cap usage are a bit short-sighted in my view as well. The money hasn’t gone anywhere and he hasn’t wasted cap space – what he didn’t use this offseason will be used later. It HAS to be under the rules (or paid to the player’s association). What’s so hard for everyone to understand about this? That’s how the system works. By focusing on establishing his culture this year, he’s simultaneously saved cap space for use over then next few years to further improve the roster – it’s a clear strategy that could and should pay big dividends.

As far as the playoffs are concerned, I think next year is certainly a realistic possibility. I haven’t quite given up on this year yet, though, as we’re thankfully in a weak division and I expect our team to improve gradually over the course of the season. I’ll admit I expected to do better than 1-5, but despite the record I think we’ve seen lots of promising signs on the field and they’ve been much more fun to watch than last year’s squad.

Sorry for the long rant, but I do get frustrated with some of the pessimism here – I think Ballard was a great hire and we’re on a very promising course.


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