ColtFreaks.com - Indianapolis Colts Fan Forum

ColtFreaks.com - Indianapolis Colts Fan Forum (http://www.coltfreaks.com/forum/index.php)
-   Indianapolis Colts Discussion (http://www.coltfreaks.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=7)
-   -   The Colts QB in 2021 is?... (http://www.coltfreaks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=113950)

Chaka 01-05-2021 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oldcolt (Post 182377)
Thirty million cap hit for the next four years is to much of a gamble for me. I am actually thinking that any draft choice would be overpaying. At this price unless Reich/Ballard are absolutely positive that the issue was Pederson I would prefer to stay away

The good news is that if the Colts acquired Wentz, they wouldn’t necessarily be on the hook for all that money. Like many backloaded contracts, the later years of Wentz’s contract (2023-2024) do not appear to be guaranteed and any existing cap impact from those years (i.e. prorated signing bonuses) would remain with Philly who paid the bonuses. Thus, the Colts would not be committed to anything for those years.

The main concern would be 2021 and 2022. As I read the contract info, his 2021 salary ($15.4M) and roster bonus ($10M) are guaranteed but not yet paid. That would be on the Colts. There’s also an unexplained 2021 “option” ($6M) which probably would need to be paid (unless Philly has already paid it), since it's highly unlikely the Colts would trade for him and then cut him before next season. So that’s $31.4M for 2021 (still less, however, than we paid Rivers/Brissett in 2020).

We’d probably be on the hook for most of 2022 as well, since $15M of his 2022 salary becomes guaranteed prior to the next (2021) season – again, we would not be cutting him before then. The rest of the 2022 salary ($7M) become guaranteed before the 2022 season, so we could get out of that if Wentz was absolutely terrible in 2021. He’s also got another $6M “option” in 2022, which may or may not need to be paid depending on its terms. So, by acquiring Wentz now, we’d be on the hook for at least $15M in 2022 if he doesn’t play for us that year, or $28M if he does.

All of this assumes, of course, that the info reported by Spotrac is accurate, and that the Colts do not attempt to renegotiate some of those terms. It is doubtful, however, that any renegotiation would reduce his guarantees, though it might push them to later/different years.

njcoltfan 01-05-2021 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaka (Post 182388)
The good news is that if the Colts acquired Wentz, they wouldn’t necessarily be on the hook for all that money. Like many backloaded contracts, the later years of Wentz’s contract (2023-2024) do not appear to be guaranteed and any existing cap impact from those years (i.e. prorated signing bonuses) would remain with Philly who paid the bonuses. Thus, the Colts would not be committed to anything for those years.

The main concern would be 2021 and 2022. As I read the contract info, his 2021 salary ($15.4M) and roster bonus ($10M) are guaranteed but not yet paid. That would be on the Colts. There’s also an unexplained 2021 “option” ($6M) which probably would need to be paid (unless Philly has already paid it), since it's highly unlikely the Colts would trade for him and then cut him before next season. So that’s $31.4M for 2021 (still less, however, than we paid Rivers/Brissett in 2020).

We’d probably be on the hook for most of 2022 as well, since $15M of his 2022 salary becomes guaranteed prior to the next (2021) season – again, we would not be cutting him before then. The rest of the 2022 salary ($7M) become guaranteed before the 2022 season, so we could get out of that if Wentz was absolutely terrible in 2021. He’s also got another $6M “option” in 2022, which may or may not need to be paid depending on its terms. So, by acquiring Wentz now, we’d be on the hook for at least $15M in 2022 if he doesn’t play for us that year, or $28M if he does.

All of this assumes, of course, that the info reported by Spotrac is accurate, and that the Colts do not attempt to renegotiate some of those terms. It is doubtful, however, that any renegotiation would reduce his guarantees, though it might push them to later/different years.

To much money. I'd rather find a way to acquire Stafford, he's 32, and hopefully would give the Colts 4-5 years of quality play while they try to find their next franchise QB. JMO tho.

Dam8610 01-05-2021 05:22 PM

The Colts would not get the Wentz contract the Eagles have, the Colts would get the Wentz contract stripped of all guarantees. All guarantees are paid pre-trade when a player is traded, that's why the Eagles would still have a $34 million dead cap hit to trade him. Once the guarantees are stripped, the Colts will essentially have a year to year contract with no guarantees, so they could keep the high cap hits OR restructure the deal with more guarantees and less overall money.

Chaka 01-05-2021 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dam8610 (Post 182425)
The Colts would not get the Wentz contract the Eagles have, the Colts would get the Wentz contract stripped of all guarantees. All guarantees are paid pre-trade when a player is traded, that's why the Eagles would still have a $34 million dead cap hit to trade him. Once the guarantees are stripped, the Colts will essentially have a year to year contract with no guarantees, so they could keep the high cap hits OR restructure the deal with more guarantees and less overall money.

Unless there is some sort of golden parachute/poison pill-type term in Wentz's contract, this is not true. It's a contract, if they trade him to the Colts, the Colts would assume the terms of that contract.

Puck 01-05-2021 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaka (Post 182440)
Unless there is some sort of golden parachute/poison pill-type term in Wentz's contract, this is not true. It's a contract, if they trade him to the Colts, the Colts would assume the terms of that contract.

Pretty sure Dam is right about the guaranteed not sure about the yr to yr part though

Chaka 01-05-2021 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puck (Post 182448)
Pretty sure Dam is right about the guaranteed not sure about the yr to yr part though

I think you guys might be confusing the rules relating to signing bonuses and contract guarantees. Although a signing bonus is paid at the time of a contract being signed, for salary cap purposes the bonus amount is divided equally over the entire term of the contract. However, if the player is traded or released before the end of the contract, the portions of the signing bonus allocated to future years are immediately telescoped into the present cap year.

Guarantees work a little differently. Contract guarantees are allocated to the year in which they are scheduled to be paid. If a player is traded, those unpaid guarantees travel with the player to the new team. If that player is cut or released instead, the team still must honor the future guarantees and those contract guarantee amounts are telescoped into the current cap year.

Last, but not least, there are non-guaranteed parts of the contract. As I’m sure everyone knows, those are extinguished without consequence if a player is cut, but until that time remain on the team’s books and are counted against their projected salary cap. If the player is traded, the new team steps into the shoes of the prior team and has the same right to honor these terms, or to cut/release the player with no obligation.

The different treatment of bonuses, contract guarantees, and non-guaranteed contract amounts (and all various permutations of each) are the building blocks for all of the financial engineering the players and teams do.

Dam8610 01-05-2021 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaka (Post 182440)
Unless there is some sort of golden parachute/poison pill-type term in Wentz's contract, this is not true. It's a contract, if they trade him to the Colts, the Colts would assume the terms of that contract.

Per the NFL CBA:

(ii) Acceleration.

(1) For any player removed from the Team’s roster, or whose Contract is assigned to another Club via waivers or trade, on or before June 1 in any League Year prior to the Final League Year, or at any time during the Final League Year, any unamortized signing bonus amounts will be included in Team Salary for such League Year, except that for each League Year preceding the Final League Year, each Club may designate up to two Player Contracts that, if terminated (i) on or after the first day of that League Year; and (ii) on or prior to June 1 and if not renegotiated after the last regular season game of the prior League Year, shall be treated (except to the extent prescribed by Section 6(d)(iv) below) as if terminated on June 2, i.e., the Salary Cap charge for each such contract will remain in the Club’s Team Salary until June 2, at which time its Paragraph 5 Salary and any unearned LTBE incentives will no longer be counted and any unamortized signing bonus will be treated as set forth in Subsection (2) below. If acceleration puts a Team over the Salary Cap, the Team will have seven days to conform with the Salary Cap, but may not sign any players until there is Room to do so under the Salary Cap.

As seen above, guarantees on a player contract must be absorbed by the trading team. Thus, as previously stated, the Colts would have Wentz on a guarantee free contract, and could easily restructure it by offering him some guarantees instead of none. I'd be happy with only trading a 3 to get him, but certainly would take him for less.

Dam8610 01-05-2021 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaka (Post 182461)
I think you guys might be confusing the rules relating to signing bonuses and contract guarantees. Although a signing bonus is paid at the time of a contract being signed, for salary cap purposes the bonus amount is divided equally over the entire term of the contract. However, if the player is traded or released before the end of the contract, the portions of the signing bonus allocated to future years are immediately telescoped into the present cap year.

Guarantees work a little differently. Contract guarantees are allocated to the year in which they are scheduled to be paid. If a player is traded, those unpaid guarantees travel with the player to the new team. If that player is cut or released instead, the team still must honor the future guarantees and those contract guarantee amounts are telescoped into the current cap year.

Last, but not least, there are non-guaranteed parts of the contract. As I’m sure everyone knows, those are extinguished without consequence if a player is cut, but until that time remain on the team’s books and are counted against their projected salary cap. If the player is traded, the new team steps into the shoes of the prior team and has the same right to honor these terms, or to cut/release the player with no obligation.

The different treatment of bonuses, contract guarantees, and non-guaranteed contract amounts (and all various permutations of each) are the building blocks for all of the financial engineering the players and teams do.

Once again, per the NFL CBA:

(iii) Amounts Treated as Signing Bonuses.

For purposes of determining Team Salary under the foregoing, the term “signing bonus” shall include:

(1) Any amount specifically described in a Player Contract as a signing bonus;
(2) Any guaranteed reporting bonus;
(3) Any consideration, when paid, or guaranteed, for option years, contract extensions, contract modifications, or individually negotiated rights of first refusal;
(4) Any option exercise fee or bonus, subject to the rule set forth in Section 7(c) below, and any option buyout amount, when paid or guaranteed;
(5) The difference between the Salary in the second contract year and the first contract year when Salary in the second contract year is less than half the Salary called for in the first year of such Contract;
(6) Any reporting bonus in the season of signing when a contract is signed after the start of training camp;
(7) Any roster bonus in the season of signing when a contract is signed after the last preseason game;
(8) Any salary advance paid on a guaranteed basis;
(9) Any guaranteed bonus tied to workouts;
(10) Any salary advance which a player is not obligated to repay;
(11) Any amount of a Salary advance, offseason workout bonus, offseason roster bonus, or offseason reporting bonus that is guaranteed for skill, injury and Salary Cap terminations, on a non-contingent basis for all of the guarantees. (Notwithstanding Subsections (8)–(9) above, a Salary advance, offseason workout bonus, offseason roster bonus, or offseason reporting bonus that is guaranteed for skill, injury and Salary Cap terminations, but on a contingent basis for any of the potential guarantees, shall be included in Team Salary only in the League Year in which the bonus is earned by the player; e.g., in the case of an offseason roster bonus, in the League Year in which the player is required to be on the roster to earn the bonus. The rules set forth in this Subsection (11) shall not affect Salary Cap accounting for any other purpose.);
(12) In a Player Contract, or any renegotiation or extension of a Player Contract, that is executed in the Final League Year, each of the following, if it is to be earned or paid to the player in the season following the Final League Year: (a) any Salary advance which the player is not and cannot be obligated to repay; (b) any offseason workout bonus that is contingent upon the player’s participation in less than half of the Club’s offseason workout program; (c) any offseason roster bonus; and (d) any offseason reporting bonus;
(13) Any bonus to be paid to a player solely for fulfilling his obligations to play under his Player Contract without seeking to renegotiate and/or “holding out” (i.e., a “completion bonus”), and which bonus is otherwise guaranteed for skill and injury, except that the amount of any such completion bonus shall be calculated at its present value, computed using the Discount Rate. Further, if any event occurs which extinguishes the player’s right to receive such completion bonus, any amount of the bonus that has previously been included in Team Salary shall be immediately added to the Club’s Team Salary for the current League Year, if such event occurs prior to June 1, or for the next League Year, if such event occurs after such date, with the remainder of the bonus that has been allocated to Team Salary for future League Years immediately extinguished.

Wentz has $24 million of option bonuses and $20 million of roster bonuses in 2021-2024. The $24 million of option bonuses and $10 million roster bonus goes on to the Eagles' cap immediately upon a trade (that's the $34 million cap hit you spoke of earlier), making it a 4 year/$66 million deal for the Colts with 2 roster bonuses of $5 million being the only guarantees on the deal. If the Colts only had to trade a 3 for him and Reich could coax 85% of 2017 Wentz out of him, they'd be stupid not to do it.

Puck 01-06-2021 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dam8610 (Post 182465)
Per the NFL CBA:

(ii) Acceleration.

(1) For any player removed from the Team’s roster, or whose Contract is assigned to another Club via waivers or trade, on or before June 1 in any League Year prior to the Final League Year, or at any time during the Final League Year, any unamortized signing bonus amounts will be included in Team Salary for such League Year, except that for each League Year preceding the Final League Year, each Club may designate up to two Player Contracts that, if terminated (i) on or after the first day of that League Year; and (ii) on or prior to June 1 and if not renegotiated after the last regular season game of the prior League Year, shall be treated (except to the extent prescribed by Section 6(d)(iv) below) as if terminated on June 2, i.e., the Salary Cap charge for each such contract will remain in the Club’s Team Salary until June 2, at which time its Paragraph 5 Salary and any unearned LTBE incentives will no longer be counted and any unamortized signing bonus will be treated as set forth in Subsection (2) below. If acceleration puts a Team over the Salary Cap, the Team will have seven days to conform with the Salary Cap, but may not sign any players until there is Room to do so under the Salary Cap.

As seen above, guarantees on a player contract must be absorbed by the trading team. Thus, as previously stated, the Colts would have Wentz on a guarantee free contract, and could easily restructure it by offering him some guarantees instead of none. I'd be happy with only trading a 3 to get him, but certainly would take him for less.

Yep that is what I read

Puck 01-06-2021 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dam8610 (Post 182466)
Once again, per the NFL CBA:

(iii) Amounts Treated as Signing Bonuses.

For purposes of determining Team Salary under the foregoing, the term “signing bonus” shall include:

(1) Any amount specifically described in a Player Contract as a signing bonus;
(2) Any guaranteed reporting bonus;
(3) Any consideration, when paid, or guaranteed, for option years, contract extensions, contract modifications, or individually negotiated rights of first refusal;
(4) Any option exercise fee or bonus, subject to the rule set forth in Section 7(c) below, and any option buyout amount, when paid or guaranteed;
(5) The difference between the Salary in the second contract year and the first contract year when Salary in the second contract year is less than half the Salary called for in the first year of such Contract;
(6) Any reporting bonus in the season of signing when a contract is signed after the start of training camp;
(7) Any roster bonus in the season of signing when a contract is signed after the last preseason game;
(8) Any salary advance paid on a guaranteed basis;
(9) Any guaranteed bonus tied to workouts;
(10) Any salary advance which a player is not obligated to repay;
(11) Any amount of a Salary advance, offseason workout bonus, offseason roster bonus, or offseason reporting bonus that is guaranteed for skill, injury and Salary Cap terminations, on a non-contingent basis for all of the guarantees. (Notwithstanding Subsections (8)–(9) above, a Salary advance, offseason workout bonus, offseason roster bonus, or offseason reporting bonus that is guaranteed for skill, injury and Salary Cap terminations, but on a contingent basis for any of the potential guarantees, shall be included in Team Salary only in the League Year in which the bonus is earned by the player; e.g., in the case of an offseason roster bonus, in the League Year in which the player is required to be on the roster to earn the bonus. The rules set forth in this Subsection (11) shall not affect Salary Cap accounting for any other purpose.);
(12) In a Player Contract, or any renegotiation or extension of a Player Contract, that is executed in the Final League Year, each of the following, if it is to be earned or paid to the player in the season following the Final League Year: (a) any Salary advance which the player is not and cannot be obligated to repay; (b) any offseason workout bonus that is contingent upon the player’s participation in less than half of the Club’s offseason workout program; (c) any offseason roster bonus; and (d) any offseason reporting bonus;
(13) Any bonus to be paid to a player solely for fulfilling his obligations to play under his Player Contract without seeking to renegotiate and/or “holding out” (i.e., a “completion bonus”), and which bonus is otherwise guaranteed for skill and injury, except that the amount of any such completion bonus shall be calculated at its present value, computed using the Discount Rate. Further, if any event occurs which extinguishes the player’s right to receive such completion bonus, any amount of the bonus that has previously been included in Team Salary shall be immediately added to the Club’s Team Salary for the current League Year, if such event occurs prior to June 1, or for the next League Year, if such event occurs after such date, with the remainder of the bonus that has been allocated to Team Salary for future League Years immediately extinguished.

Wentz has $24 million of option bonuses and $20 million of roster bonuses in 2021-2024. The $24 million of option bonuses and $10 million roster bonus goes on to the Eagles' cap immediately upon a trade (that's the $34 million cap hit you spoke of earlier), making it a 4 year/$66 million deal for the Colts with 2 roster bonuses of $5 million being the only guarantees on the deal. If the Colts only had to trade a 3 for him and Reich could coax 85% of 2017 Wentz out of him, they'd be stupid not to do it.

Yep


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:24 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
ColtFreaks.com is in no way affiliated with the Indianapolis Colts, the NFL, or any of their subsidiaries.